Saturday, June 2, 2007

Daniel's 70th Week

This post be a place for you to discuss Daniel's 70th Week as discussed in the E.R. model. It will be updated on a periodic basis. Included in the discussion will be:

  • What is the starting point of the 70 Weeks or 490 Years?
  • What is the ending point of the 69th Week?
  • What is said to take place after the 69th Week is complete?
  • Can we see the final 7 years within the Book of Revelation?

Until then, please feel free post questions or comments on this topic!


In Christ,
Dave

28 comments:

Grumpy said...

Forgive me for posting this here if it's misplaced, but it's the closest thread description I could find to post it in.

Not sure what to make of this video showing possible codes in the Star of David but I think it's incredibly interesting. Just seems like it "may" hold some additional end-times clues for the begining of Daniel's 70th week for someone learned in bible prophecy.

lightshine said...

Hi Grumpy- interesting video. I've always been interested in the Star of David. Where did it originate? How did it become the symbol of Judism? I read somewhere that it is belived that The Law was written [at Sinai] on sapphire slabs and that when you cut sapphire you get a 6 pointed star. I have a star sapphire ring so I know that is true. I would like to learn more.......

David W. Lowe said...

<<1007 said...

Hi Dave,
You have done an excellent job with your site, well done.
I would like to know more about the problems with the Anderson model of the end of the 69th week.
Trouble is, I really want it to work! The other trouble is, I cannot follow most of the detailed exlanations of why we arrive at the wrong day if we take the decree of Artaxerxes Longimanes in 445BC as the starting point. It has always been my percepption that it is the only decree that refers to specifically building the city as opposed to the temple.>>

1007,

The problems with Anderson's timeline that I know of are:

1. He uses a 360 day lunar year because he believes that there is a "prophetic year" concept set forth in Eze. 9 (I believe).

2. He uses the wrong ending point for the end of the first 69 weeks: the triumphal entry into Jerusalem. This wasn't the the coming of the Anointed One, as Daniel 9:25 requires. The Greek "mashiyach" means "anointed one", not Messiah as the KJV english provides. The coming of the anointed one was without a doubt Jesus at his baptism and start of his ministry at age 30. If you've read my book, I go through many reasons why this is the best understanding of the "anointed one" and not the triumphal entry that Anderson uses.

3. There are other mathematical problems with Anderson's methods that other scholars have pointed out. I didn't study them out, but they should be easy enough to find on the web.

Bottom line, counting 1 normal year from 457-458 AD to 27-28 AD comes out to exactly 483 years, or 69 weeks. This is without any appeals to a "prophetic year" or strange mathematical calculations. This is the most logical and sensible way to interpret the starting and ending point of the first 69 weeks.

Dave

David W. Lowe said...

Grumpy,

That was a pretty neat video...cool graphics.

I've not done any research into the star of David, but I believe I've read somewhere that it has some occult overtones. If I come across that information, I'll pass it on to you.

Harold said...

Grumpy,

That was a pretty interesting video!

Grumpy said...
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Grumpy said...
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Grumpy said...

I found the following excerpt from another prophecy book to be very interesting, given that both Eze 32:4 and Rev 19:21 speak of birds feasting on the bodies of dead soldiers in the battles alluded to in those verses...


"Interestingly, there is considerable scientific and naturalistic support for the presence of the birds in the sky over Israel in massive numbers. The website for the International Center for the Study of Bird Migration, in Latrun, Israel Ornithological Center, proclaims “Israel’s unique location at the junction of three continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa, makes it a site for an extraordinary phenomena: some 500 million migrating birds cross its skies twice a year.” 52 The Arava Institute for Environmental Studies informs us “The Arava Valley is one of the major routes for annual bird migrations between Asia & Europe and Africa. The International Birding and Research Center in Eilat provides crucial habitat for birds crossing the great deserts. It serves as the last refueling stop before crossing the deserts during their fall migration to Africa and the first glimpse of
greenery and food for exhausted birds on their way to nesting grounds on their way north during spring migration.”

Another interesting piece of the end times puzzle slowly revealing itself.

Grumpy said...

If the resurrection earthquake that occurs with the opening of the sixth seal is also the same earthquake mentioned in Eze 38:19 during the Gog/Magog war, as proposed in a book by another prophecy scholar, then maybe all three of these events will immediately precede the 70th week of Daniel, and here's why...

After the Gog/Magog war, Ezekiel 39:9 says the following: "Then those who live in the cities of Israel will go out and use the weapons for kindling, the shields, bows and arrows, war clubs and spears, they will burn them for seven years"

Could this seven years be another hint that Daniel's 70th week starts immediately after the above events?

Harold said...

Hi Grumpy,

The fall migration of these birds would be in the September-October time frame then?

I just read a really interesting article on Rosh Hashanah. The author is convinced that the Rapture will happen during this Jewish festival. He makes a really strong case. Rosh Hashanah falls on September 13th this year, which would be near the time that the birds are migrating.

Here is a link to the article:
http://www.watch.pair.com/rosh-hashana.html

I just finished reading "Red Moon Rising." I thought that it was a really good book. I just downloaded "The Silence is Broken" and I hope to start reading it tomorrow.

God Bless,
Harold

Harold said...

Grumpy,

I think you are right. I think that they are the same earthquake. After reading David's books and Red Moon Rising, there is no way I can go back to believing the traditional pretrib rapture theory. The timeline that David and Peter use makes so much more sense. Starting the Tribulation Period after the opening of the 6th seal is the only time that makes sense to me anymore. The evidence they present is rock solid.

There are holes big enough to drive a freighter through in the traditional pretrib theory and there is absolutely no evidence at all for postrib rapture. It always amazes me that people still defend the postrib view. Are these people reading the same Bible that we do?

God Bless,
Harold

Grumpy said...

Hi Harold and God Bless. It's very excitng and enlightening, to be reading books and analysis on bible prophecy that is not just a rehash the same old stuff.

I know some view any new analysis of bible prophecy as "false doctrine", however it may be that the bible actually alluded to these new discoveries.

Here's what another bible prophecy scholar said about this issue...

We know that Daniel was told to "conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase" and "these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time" (Daniel 12:4, 9).

What knowledge will increase? In the End Times, the knowledge of Bible Scripture and prophecy will increase by students going back and forth throughout the Scriptures studying the Holy Word under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


It's not inconceivable that these verses, like so many in the bible, have another symbolic meaning as well, as implied by the statement above in bold

Grumpy said...

Another "possible" hint that the battle of Gog and Magog in Ezekiel will precede Daniel's 70th week is the following...

According to prophecy scholar Marion Kremers, the phrase, the nations (or Israel) will know that I am the Lord, is repeated exactly 70 times by the prophet Ezekiel until the prophecy of invasion, and never again afterwards.

I think this is very interesting

Harold said...

Grumpy,

You always manage to dig up some very interesting nuggets of information.

I think you hit the nail on the head with Daniel 12:4 and 9! As you say, people are very resistant to any new theories and consider them to be false right off the bat. However, in light of these verses, it only makes sense that things are becoming clearer as we get closer to the end. I think God has used the Holy Spirit to reveal things to people like David and Peter that others have missed.

God Bless,
Harold

lightshine said...

Hi Grumpy- Perry Stones Mannafest had an interesting program on the 'ravenous birds'. I can't remember exactly what he said, but the overview was that there hadn't been any in Israel and now there are about 400 in residence on the Golon Heights.He mentioned the migratory millions as well. The video showed them flying around. Gave me the chills.

lightshine said...

Hi Harold- post trib? Yeah, same Bible. They have just been taught to understand it in a certain way.Most are not open to anything that isn't consistant with what they've been taught.Very frustrating for me-everyone I know has this viewpoint........

Harold said...

lightshine,

What you said about Perry Stone and the ravenous birds sounds very interesting. However, I can't seem to dig up much information on the Internet about it. I wish I could see his video on the birds. Is it like Alfred Hitchcock's movie "The Birds"? :-)

I guess traditional Pretrib people can be pretty close minded as well, but I think that they are a lot closer to the truth than the Postribers are.

God Bless,
Harold

lightshine said...

Hi Harold- here's the link for the Perry Stone videos- http://www.voiceofevangelism.org/video.cfm.

Grumpy said...

Lightshine, thanks for the post. I wasn't aware of that link.

Here it is as a clickable link : )

Perry Stone Videos

Harold said...

lightshine and grumpy,

Thanks for the link.

lightshine said...

Hi David- I'm reading ER, the section on the many saints. I have a note in my Bible about one of these saints being interviewed by the High Priests after he was resurrected. Apparently there is a written record somewhere.I think I saw it on one of the episodes of 'Encounters with the Unexplained' on TLN. Do you or anyone [Grumpy? Harold?] have any info on this?

Harold said...

lightshine,

Sorry, but I don't have any information the resurrected saints being interviewed by the high priests.

I finally watched that Perry Stone video on the ravenous birds. It was pretty cool. I ran across the following link:

http://www.pbase.com/xnir/eagles

It has some great pictures taken from the Golan Heights of the Griffon Vultures.

God Bless,
Harold

WJM said...

Harold, Grumpy, David and all

Harold posted on Joel's about the vultures in Gaza and I remembered that on my blog I had posted quite a long article about the buzzards returning to Israel. I know it is terribly long but I don't remember where I got it and my original post got deleted mysteriously some time ago. Like in April.

Anyway, here it is:

Title: VULTURES -- BIRDS THAT FEED ON CARRION -- ARE SUDDENLY INCREASING DRAMATICALLY IN ISRAEL BECAUSE ISRAELIS ARE FEEDING THEM, CARING FOR THEM
Subtitle: Almost everyone in the world despises birds of prey who feed on the flesh of dead animals! How, then, do you explain the phenomenon whereby Jewish citizens of Israel are suddenly attracted to vultures, even to the point of setting up feeding and caring stations?
The answer seems simple: this is another sign of the coming End of the Age. Can the "separation of population" scheme of Prime Minister Sharon (Unilateral Disengagement) possibly associated with this vulture phenomenon?
The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily news!!
Learn how to protect yourself, your loved ones!
Stand by for insights so startling you will never look at the news the same way again.
YOU ARE NOW ON
THE CUTTING EDGE
Copyright © 2004 Cutting Edge Ministries. All rights reserved. See full copyright notice below.
The Jews of Israel are suddenly showing great concern and affection for vultures, to the point where the population is increasing dramatically! Is Revelation prophecy about to be fulfilled? While some might consider this possibility to be an unwarranted leap of speculation, you must admit that Israel today is moving inexorably toward the final fulfillment of numerous End of the Age prophecies. Cutting Edge has devoted much time and space chronicling this exciting record. She was reborn as nation on May 14, 1948, despite the overwhelming opposition of Arabs and Europeans alike. She has fought five major wars since then, most of them against considerable odds. Israel today numbers 6.6 million citizens living amidst 300+ million Arabs who universally want to kill her once and for all and throw her out of the Middle East. The very fact that tiny Israel can withstand this kind of opposition is proof positive of the Omnipotent power of Almighty God. God gets the glory when He defends tiny Israel against overwhelming foes. Listen:
"The Lord did not set His love upon you and choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the fewest of all people. But because the Lord loves you and because He would keep the oath which He had sworn to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know, recognize, and understand therefore that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God, Who keeps covenant and steadfast love and mercy with those who love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations ..." [Deut. 7:7-9; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible Commentary; this parallel feature also available in the Thompson Chain Reference Computer Library]
God gets the glory when He delivers a tiny Israel from such a host of her enemies that no one in their right mind could ever anticipate victory. Keep this Biblical fact in mind as we go through the rest of this article.
FINAL CALL TO FEASTING ON THE FLESH OF THE FALLEN
Now, what are we to make of the fact that Israelites are suddenly protecting these ugly, filthy, disgusting vultures with a zeal akin to environmentalists protecting a bird on the Endangered Species list? Let us review our news article, written by a Christian author, Noah Hutchings, whose books we carry in our bookstore.
NEWS BRIEF: "Israeli Love Birds", by Dr. Noah W. Hutchings, Prophetic Observor, July 4, 2004
The buzzards of Israel are displaying affection for each other in multiplying and also, the Israeli people have a rather strange affection for the buzzards ... The birds of prey are frequently poisoned by Israeli farmers. Israel's 'Spreading Wings' program to resuscitate the vulture population has set up 20 feeding and nesting stations around the country.
When the Jews were absent from the land during the Diaspora, the land became a virtual desert. With no trees or grain crops, the wild animal and bird population of Israel, including the vultures, disappeared. Now that Israel is back, trees cover the land and extensive farming of all kinds provides food for the birds and wild animals once more. The vulture population at Gamla on the east side of the Sea of Galilee has been increasing in recent years, but pesticides and eating deer and other animals which have been shot has also poisoned some vultures.
But, setting up nesting and feeding stations for vultures throughout Israel is increasing the vulture population. Now, even mating vultures that have been injured and cannot fly are mating because of the scientific effort which has made this type of mating possible. Why does Israel have such an affinity for vultures? Prophetic Scriptures assign a very important function to the fowls of the air who feast primarily on carrion, like vultures, after Jesus has slaughtered untold millions of the army of Antichrist. Listen:
"Then I saw a single angel stationed in the sun's light, and with a mighty voice he shouted to all the birds that fly across the sky, Come, gather yourselves together for the great supper of God, That you may feast on the flesh of rulers, the flesh of generals and captains, the flesh of powerful and mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all humanity, both free and slave, both small and great!"
"... And the rest were killed with the sword that issues from the mouth of Him Who is mounted on the horse, and all the birds fed ravenously and glutted themselves with their flesh." [Rev. 19:17-18, 21; Parallel Bible, KJV/Amplified Bible; this parallel feature also available in the Thompson Chain Reference Computer Library]
This description is of the so-called "Battle of Armageddon". I do not use the word, "battle" for the "Battle of Armageddon" shall be a complete slaughter of the soldiers and leaders of the army of Antichrist, with no casualties amongst the Armies of Heaven led by Jesus Christ (Rev 19:14-15). The Bible says that Jesus shall simply say one word and they shall all fall slain. The unsaved world has recreated what the Battle of Armageddon really is, teaching that it is a final battle fought between the mighty nations of the earth at the very End of the Age. The Bible cannot allow this interpretation as you can see for yourself by reading Revelation 16:16 and 19:11-21.
Let us take a moment now to read an interesting commentary on these verses.
"The carcasses of God's enemies shall be food for all the fowls of heaven. This is according to a Jewish tradition, Synopsis Sohar, p. 114, n. 25: "In the time when God shall execute vengeance for the people of Israel, he shall feed all the beasts of the earth for twelve months with their flesh and all the fowls for seven years." It is well known that both beasts and birds of prey are accustomed to frequent fields of battle, and live upon the slain. There shall be a universal destruction; the kings, generals, captains, and all their host, shall be slain." —Adam Clarke's Commentary
The emphasis in this verse is upon the general term, "birds of prey", birds that feed on the flesh of the dead. In this case, as noted above, the dead shall be lying in great numbers on a field of slaughter.
Notice also the words, "... a single angel stationed in the sun's light, and with a mighty voice he shouted to all the birds that fly across the sky, Come, gather yourselves together for the great supper of God ..." This prophecy sounds very much like God Himself, or this mighty angel, shall issue forth some kind of divine signal to all birds of prey, especially calling them to this field of final slaughter of the soldiers of Antichrist's army. Easton's Illustrated Bible Dictionary states that, in the Israel of old, birds of prey were, "excepting during the winter three months, so numerous everywhere in Palestine as to be almost gregarious (flocking together)".
Since 1948, rainfall has returned to normal ancient levels in Israel, and much of the original type of vegetation has returned; therefore, it should not be too surprising her ancient flocks of birds of prey should return. However, as Dr. Hutchings pointed out, what is really remarkable is that the Jewish citizens of Israel are showing unusual signs of care for these carrion-feasting birds.
RUSSIAN-LED INVASION OF ISRAEL
However, before this climactic slaughter, when Jesus kills the armies of Antichrist, God prophesies similarly against the Russian-led armies attacking Israel (Ezekiel 38-39)
"And you, son of man, thus says the Lord God: Say to the birds of prey of every sort and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves and come, gather from every side to the sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you, even a great sacrificial feast on the mountains of Israel at which you may eat flesh and drink blood. You shall eat the flesh of the mighty and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, of goats, and of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan [east of the Jordan]. And you shall eat fat till you are filled and drink blood till you are drunk at the sacrificial feast which I am preparing for you." [Ezekiel 39:17-18; Ibid.]
Once again, let us check with the Adam Clarke Commentary as to the meaning of these verses. However, we shall pick up the explanation in verse 12 of Ezekiel 39:
"It shall require a long time to bury the dead ... This slow process of burying is distinctly related in the three following verses, and extended even to a bone, ver. 15; which, when it was found by a passenger, the place was marked, that the buriers might see and inter it. Seven months was little time enough for all this work; and in that country putrescence does not easily take place: the scorching winds serving to desiccate the flesh, and preserve it from decomposition ..."
"Gather yourselves to my sacrifice" - This is an allusion to a custom common in the east: when a sacrifice is made, the friends and neighbors of the party sacrificing are invited to come and feast on the sacrifice.
"Ye shall drink the blood of the princes of the earth" -- this is spoken of fowls and beasts here -- rams, lambs, and goats. The feast shall be as grateful and as plenteous to the fowls and beasts, as one made of the above animals, the fattest and best of their kind ... would be to the guests of him who makes a sacrifice.
"And ye shall eat fat and drink blood" - Who shall eat and drink, etc.? Not the Jews ... It is the fowls and the beasts that God invites, ver. 17: "Speak to every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, assemble yourselves-that ye may eat flesh and drink blood;" —Adam Clarke's Commentary
When God supernaturally destroys the armies surrounding Israel (Ezekiel 38-39), they shall lay in great number, so great a number that the persons who would try to bury them shall need some help from on high. God provides this help by sending a Divine call to the birds of prey throughout the Middle East, to come to the battlefield to sumptuously dine on the dead carcasses of the wicked army which attempted to destroy Israel, the "apple of His eye".
As Adam Clarke noted, above, the wording "Gather yourselves to my sacrifice" alludes to an invitation common in the Middle East to invite friends over for a very specially prepared feast. God is celebrating His victory here in this wording, a victory over the enemies of Israel, made certain by His Omnipotent power!

Did you listen to Joel with his interview at the Empire State Building? He mentioned an Earthquake happening at the rapture

Shalom

Grumpy said...

RE: "Did you listen to Joel with his interview at the Empire State Building? He mentioned an Earthquake happening at the rapture"

Whoa! I wasn't aware of that. I'll listen to it tonight. Thanks WJM!!!

David W. Lowe said...

Lightshine,

Yes, I believe I know what you are referring to. The reference is in the Gospel of Nicodemus, in which he refers to 12,000 people raised in Jerusalem and walking through the streets victorius, then taken to heaven with the Lord. I believe one of them was named Karinas and another Simeon. I found that was interesting but chose not mention it in the book.

Harold said...

wjm,

Thanks for the vulture information. Very cool! I downloaded Joel's interview right after he posted it, but I haven't got around to listening to it yet. Hopefully, I will get a chance tomorrow.

Thanks,
Harold

WJM said...

David, I am trying to contact Grumpy, Harold and Jeri SA regarding posting while Joel's is closed down. I know they speak so highly of you and have shared your literary talents with all of us on numerous occasions. If it isn't asking too much, could I please post this here in the hopes that they will visit your blog and see this. If they will leave a comment on my blog (click my name) the message of where we are discussing is on that page. Or go here,
/www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=8713085823204406316&postID=84217808690172586

It is Mr. Hyde's page. We are missing our learned brothers very much and appreciate any help you can offer to get in contact with them.

Shalom
Wilma

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