Ascension to the Right Hand of God

This post be a place for you to discuss Jesus Christ's ascension to the right hand of God in Rev. chapters 4 and 5 as discussed in the E.R. model.

I've not done an exhaustive study on every vision of the Bible to see if any included historical information. Neither have I done any study on non-canonical apocalyptic writings (Revelation was written in "apocalyptic" style), like the Gospel of Barnabas, Books of Enoch, etc. to see if any of their visions included things of the past.

But, several come to mind in the Bible, including a couple in Revelation:

1. Daniel's vision in Dan. 2 included the Babylonian empire and king Nebuchadnezzar as the head of gold which already had come into power in the past, and would therefore be historical.

2. Ezekiel in chapter 9 was taken and shown things in the spirit that had been going on and were going on in Israel.

3. In Rev. 17, the angel took John in the spirit and showed him the beast with seven heads. Five of the heads were kings which had fallen, and one of them was. This means six of them were past...historical.

4. In Rev. 12, John was shown a vision of Jesus' birth. The woman is said to represent Israel, who gave birth to Jesus, and the dragon tried to kill him when he was born. Verse 5 even refers to Jesus being caught up to God and his throne. This is the ascension in the first century. So, this vision goes back even further than 33 AD...it goes back to 4-6 BC and Jesus' birth. This vision clearly included historical data.

So, it follows that John could have been first asked to "Come up here", here being the heavenly throne room, to be shown things that would take place in the future. First, John was shown a vision of the ascension from a heavenly perspective in Rev. 4-5 (remember that he was one of the few who saw the ascension from an earthly perspective at the mount of Olives in Luke 24 and Acts 1). Then he was shown what would happen hereafter, from the first century to the present and until the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

The vision of Rev. 12 is strong evidence that John could see a vision of a past event even though he was writing in the future with respect to that event. In both the vision of Rev. 4-5 and Rev. 12, it was essential that John be shown how the birth of Christ, the ascension, and Christ place at the right hand of God fit into the overall prophetic picture.

It's like giving us essential background to a story before telling us how it ended.


In Christ,
Dave

The Timing of the Seals

This post be a place for you to discuss the timing of the opening of the seven sealed scroll according to the E.R. model.

The scriptural evidence for believing that the first five seals have already been opened is extensive and convincing, in my view. Here are a few reasons:

a. I believe in Rev. 4-5, John was given a vision of the first century ascension of Christ to the right hand of God. This place the opening of the scroll with the seven seals in the same time frame as that event, not 2000+ years into the future.

b. The first five seals very closely resemble the "birth pains" that Jesus said would take place before the end would come.

c. I believe the four horses and riders are spiritual beings who have influence in the natural world, and that this began in the first century and continues to the present. They are progressive and current up to the present time. John was simply shown, by Jesus opening the seals on the scroll, what would have to take place from the first century until the present on the earth before the wrath of God would be unleashed after the opening of the seventh seal.

What scriptural evidence is there that the four horses and riders of Rev. 6 are spiritual beings that were unleashed in the first century?

1. Job 2:1 Again the day came when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also arrived among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 2:6 So the LORD said to Satan, "All right, he [Job] is in your power; only preserve his life."
Job 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD, and he afflicted Job with a malignant ulcer from the sole of his feet to the top of his head.

Satan and the sons of God (b'nai elohim) requested of God that he could persecute Job. God allowed it. Granted this isn't all humanity, but an example.

2. Zec 6:5 The messenger replied, “These are the four spirits of heaven that have been presenting themselves [yatsab] before the Lord of all the earth.
Zec 6:6 The chariot with the black horses is going to the north country and the white ones are going after them, but the spotted ones are going to the south country.
Zec 6:7 All these strong ones are scattering; they have sought permission to go and walk about [halak] over the earth.” The Lord had said, “Go! Walk about over the earth!” So they are doing so.

In this passage, the "strong ones that scatter" were granted permission by God to do what they requested to do. Notice verse 5 calls the riders of these verses the "four spirits"? Spirits, not men. And four of them.

3. Eph 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavens.

Believers and nonbelievers struggle against the spiritual realm.

4. Eph 2:2 in which you formerly lived according to this world's present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience,

The sons of disobedience (unbelievers) are energized (influenced) by an unseen spirit being, what the KJV calls the prince of the power of the air.

What I'm proposing in these first four seals of Rev. 6 is that evil spirit beings are influencing/energizing humans to deceive/kill/oppress, etc., and human beings are carrying out the deception/murder/oppression. This is what was going on in Zech. chapter 6...four spirits allowed by God to go to different parts of the earth and carry out whatever it is that they wanted to do. God granted their request.

What I believe scripture does clearly teach in Zech 6:5-7 (see previous post) is that there were four spirits that God allowed to go forth into the earth and do...whatever it is they did. They were also riding colored horses, not the exact same colors to the ones in Rev. 6, but very close.

The point is that there is scripture to support the belief that the white horse rider, and the other three horse riders, are spiritual beings who influence humanity to do bad things to each other. But there isn't any scriptural evidence that these riders are actual human beings. Clearly, there is sound scriptural evidence that the AC will be a human being in the future, but it does not follow that the white horse rider is that human being, especially when Zech 6:5-7 provides a much better alternative understanding.

In Christ,
Dave